RIGA – Here’s what the previous post is not about. It’s not about whether Russians have a right to celebrate the end of World War II the way they chose. It’s not about whether Russians were liberators or occupiers. It’s not about political consequences of the Second World War. It’s not about how good integrated Russians should celebrate this day. In a way, the previous post isn’t about March 16.
But here’s what this post is about. It’s about memory of people who died in the most awful war the European continent has ever seen. Every country has a day to remember its men and women who died serving their country. Americans celebrate Memorial Day. The British celebrate the Remembrance Day on November 11.
Each of these days are tied to a particular war, of course. Americans started commemorating the Memorial Day after the Civil War. It began first as a way to commemorate those Americans who gave their lives in the Civil War and after the First World War it included all men and women who had given their lives serving their country.
The Remembrance Day commemorates the end of the World War One. But now it involves veterans from WW1, WW2, the Falklands, Kosovo, Bosnia, Northern Ireland and the ongoing conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq – some of which may or may not have been just and liberating.
Back in 1998, Latvian officials failed to explain the significance of March 16 to the international community. At that time, it’d been suggested to commemorate deaths of all fallen soldiers on November 11, the day of the Bear-slayer. However, it didn’t take place. November 11 is still largely about Latvia in 1919. And now March 16 is no longer an official day of commemoration and hardly any of the government officials attend its ceremonies.
My previous post was misinterpreted to mean that Latvians should join Russians in celebrating the Victory day. It wasn’t so. I was my dream it were so, but I realize that it’s my sick idealistic fantasy. The post was also misinterpreted to mean that any criticism of the Latvian government concerning the Second World War ultimately means the glorification of the Russian government and role of the Soviet Union in that war. This kind of black and white thinking is not what the previous post was about.
Nor was the post about politics. It was not about whether the war – any war – was just any more or any less so than wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Vietnam. Would we remember the two soldiers who died in the war in Iraq recently by pointing a finger at the government who sent them there contrary to what majority of Latvians thought? Or would we say that those soldiers who died there searching for the weapon of mass destruction were simply wasting the time and resources? How would we tell that to children and then grandchildren of those people who died in wars like that? I, for one, couldn’t do it.
But it seems that’s what we’re doing with those who died in the Second World War. For Latvia, those men and women regardless of their uniform or allegiance, or even deaths of civilians mean absolutely nothing. And I find it repugnant.
And that’s what the previous post was about.
Or state-founding day?
It does June 12, marking a day when Russia declared it independence from the Soviet Union. According to Wikipedia, it’s been greatly promoted to a major holiday by the second president of Russia, Vladimir Putin. However, Russians here don’t celebrate it. There’s no self-determination attached to it – besides most Russians in Russia loath 1990s.
Why is it that the former slave workers from the SU, who are coming to Germany (for example to Osnabrück) are speaking up the first time about what has happened to them. They had to shut up or better hide their fate at home. It was not a good story in the SU or nowadays Belarussia. It stinks. And Giustino, it is not history, they are still living. At least some. There are enough documents showing prisoners, slave workers that where very resistant to be relocated when the Soviet agents arrived in Germany. And their feeling was right. This is only one aspect. Soviet history is distortion when not even worse.
[...] December, I wrote this when Lavrov visited Rīga to sign a historical border treaty. Guistino reminded me what impact history still has here – even this online discussion alone serves as a reminder. [...]
Pēteri,
“The same force that liberated her took” – look, I am sorry for your family’s tragedy. I am certainly not insisting that you have to celebrate May 9. I can well understand that on many families, Soviet occupation inflicted far more suffering than the Nazi rule. I can understand those that cheered the arrival of the German army. For many people, the Nazi regime was the lesser of the two evils. What I am saying is that for many people it was vice versa, and these people have the right to remember their dead relatives and to celebrate the end of their suffering. Different views on historical events are a norm in liberal societies. What we need is respect to the other points of view – and that is something that is lacking, on both sides.
Re the comment on the Russian mayor of Riga – Edmunds Krastiņš, a fairly prominent member of the People’s Party, said it. I cannot give you a quote right now. What I wanted to say is that, it would be somewhat unfair to say that people who were at the monument are not “good citizens” because they did not distance themselves from the Russian flag wavers did not ask that lady to remove the Stalin picture. After all, nobody attacked Krastiņš after his interview. You may be right that it was not xenophobic in its intention (although public figures should think what they are saying) but there is a plenty of other examples. Take the prominent lawyer Grūtups and his book, which claims that the trial of Jeckeln and other Nazi criminals was a Jewish “act of revenge”, that Jeckeln’s guilt is “unclear”, etc. – if even his People’s Party backers, and their voters, refuse to make a meaningful reaction, how can we expect in from the people who come to the monument?
Heck, even in this very discussion, a certain contributor has stated on more than one occasion that Latvian citizens of Russian descent are “vampires”, that they “feed on Latvia”, that they are a “dead-weight”, that “walling them out of Riga and Jurmala” is an acceptable course of action – an yet none of the supposedly well-educated, Western-oriented participants of the discussion have dared to say that these comments are outrageous, that they are reminiscent of Nazism in both content and rhetoric, that they should have no place in a liberal democracy which Latvia, for all its problems, still remains. If even here, this kind of speech is acceptable, how can anyone demand the 70+ year old Russians to push away the people with Stalin placards?
By the way, Pēteri – I really dislike the use of Nazi analogies, and I especially dislike when they are arbitrarily used against Latvia by various “anti-Fascists” – you can read my discussion with Stalker on your blog. But some cases simply cross the line
Snork,
The Western-leaning posters have had encounters with amber on Latvians Online forums. Most of us are done being shocked…
“Does that mean “vodka, vobla and chastushka” are the essence of Russian culture?”
If Vaira Vīķe-Freiberga had spent most of her life in Latvia, rather than in Canada, she would have never made this comment, for two reasons. First, she would have known that vodka and vobla are never consumed together – vobla is eaten with beer, while the closest thing to vobla that can be eaten with vodka is herring, or “selyodka”. Ask any Russian, they would tell you.
Second, she would have known that May 9, 1945 is, in fact, a defining moment in Russian collective memory and that the Victory Day is, for Russians, one of the most important and widely celebrated holidays (together with the New Year, and, for Russian Latvians, also Līgo, although these two obviously involve no identity issues). I have to say it again – it is the analogue of the Song Festival for Russians. You may say that they are wrong, that this is an irrational militaristic celebration etc. – but the fact remains that this is a crucial element of the modern Russian culture and identity. This may be hard to understand for some people, but cultures are different, and it is equally hard for some non-Latvians to understand why songs are so important in Latvian culture. I can only repeat once again that respect is the most needed commodity in this country.
“I’ve always found the “at least he remained true to his views” argument darkly ridiculous. ”
I am not among his supporters, as I have said. I was merely commenting on the fact that Rubiks is seen as a non-person while other former Party members – including those who were active in propaganda, like Tabūns – are respected politicians (and radical nationalists, more often than not) just because they changed their allegiance at the right moment.
Aleks,
You can target me all you want as congenitally, incorrigibly anti-Russian (not true) and even try to summon the international friendship brigade on LOL to your aid, but it doesn’t change the comments that certain other “favored” posters address to your “wacko” assertions. As you well know, that’s not my word. Amidst all that making-nice on LOL, some serious differences of opinion about matters in Latvia between you and others, even yours, have been revealed that I would hope you would not dismiss as easily as you try to discount me. I appreciate your attempts to bridge the Latvian/Russian divide, but making false-nice on these forums will not cure it. I don’t think you convey Russian attitudes towards Latvians honestly but hide the more harsh truth which comes spilling out at times in the comments of some of your associates as you have expresssed to them. Whatever you say or want to think about me, it doesn’t change the reality that only 14% of Russians in Latvia think that Latvia was occupied. Talk to us about how this is. It is simply silly to talk about “hating” Russians or Latvians and annoying to have to take the time to constantly reject this convenient but meaningless and unhelpful answer to serious differences of opinion, feeling, experience, perception and understanding of “facts” and “truth” that should be examined without concerns of immediate ad hominem attacks.
To address the comment by Stork: It is your propagandistic-language, out-of-context distortion of some of my more “pithy” comments that is “outrageous.” You want my comments condemned for – say what?!? -”being “reminiscent of Nazism in both content and rhetoric” You should think twice about throwing around such over-the-top language and read up on “Nazism.” Instead of addressing the real horrors perpetrated under two monstrous ideologies, German Nazism and Soviet Communism, you find a way to draw your own meaning and “outrage” in order to stretch your unrelenting defense of “old people” carrying Stalin placards. How do you know that they are 70+ years? Why would that matter? Is there an age cut-off for the pass on Stalin nostalgia? Do you think 70+ year-olds should be able to carry placards of Hitler? In Uzvaras Park? In Golden Gate Park? In Hyde Park? Maybe in Moscow? I saw the hammer-and sickle displayed on May 9. Have you recently seen large displays of the swastika? I guess “Nazi nostalgia” just doesn’t work, does it? I wonder why “Soviet nostalgia” does? Why do you think? What do you think about Stalin being revived to live in Russian textbooks? Are those the books that Russia sent to Rezekne, Latvia?
I don’t think you even read what I really wrote other than tripping on “vampires” and “vampirism.” I actually got that from a contributor on LOL who used the term “vampirism” to describe Moscow Latvians feeding off other Latvians’ Latvian-energy without contributing. I believe that neither Latvians nor Russians are really vampires (I hope not) but both can be guilty of “vampirism” and “feeding off” Latvia and Latvians. If you live in Latvia but refuse to speak Latvian and feel little or no loyalty to Latvia, and wave the Russian flag and display “Soviet nostalgia” while celebrating May 9 as “victory” day while denying the Soviet occupation of Latvia, what would you call this? And about your problem with walls: walls can be real or metaphorical. I mentioned the Israelis because they built a real wall against the Palestinians as people who could possibly show Latvians how to overcome their “pathological tolerance.” (I also think the Estonians should be consulted about “deporting to Siberia” some of the offensive reminders of Soviet occupation. Again, help with Latvian “pathological tolerance.”) I guess you missed that. What takes place on May 9 in “Uzvaras” Park already exists behind the “wall of misunderstanding.” Parts of Riga and Jurmala exist behind cultural walls and in parallel universes.
Finally, what do you think about only 14% of Russians in Latvia thinking that Latvia was occupied – by them as Soviets? I would think it would be hard to do both: celebrate your Soviet victory on May 9 and then turn around and see yourself as a Soviet “occupant” in the country you just celebrated “liberating? Can this be the crux of the problem?
Don’t have much time for anything else at the moment, but a quick question. I am assuming that I am one of those favored friends and member of the International Friendship Bridage? If so, all I want to know: are there discounts involved with that? I could use a skidka on my Vobla and Vodka.
P.S. I am assuming the membership cards and an explanation of the benefits are in the mail?
Andrejs,
I don’t think you quite qualify for Pathologically Tolerant Latvians but I think your matrilineal line puts you with Congenital Incorrigible Latvians. Our dues require money for alcohol – melnais balzams, alus, snabis, brandijs, cabernet sauvignon, Absolut but not Stoli – we don’t care how much you pay as long as you count out the money in Latvian in front of the Russian clerk at Maxima. Another thing, you can’t bring any Soviet nostalgia to our secret meetings at Brivibas Piemineklis. We meet where the flowers are arranged in the colors of the flag. That’s the Latvian flag. We also meet at my cousin’s “Russian” safe house to elude Latvian-hating Aleks. You can smell the pelmeni from the street and hear the balalaika music. I actually love both. At the beginning we sing Daugav’s Abas Malas, dance Sudmalinas in the middle after we’ve thoroughly criticized everyone, especially Russians and Latvians, and finish with Dievs Sveti Latviju – you know the words, right? Since I’m not with the Pathologically Tolerant Latvians, you can take it or leave it.
Aleks,
“The Western-leaning posters have had encounters with amber on Latvians Online forums.”
OK, I finally checked it out. You should have pointed it our right away – it would have saved a lot of space here.
No skidkas then? A pity. And I am glad that you think my matrillineal line is incorrigible. Most Latvians who share your views seem to pathologically focus on my patrillineal line.
Andrejs,
I daresay it is you who focuses on your patrilineal line and asserts it to the neglect of your other half. Why is that? Fight your own demons, Andrejs, and don’t impart your views to me. I have a problem with both Nazi and Soviet nostalgia, unlike you, and you could say, am pathologically “intolerant” of both. Why you don’t have a problem with Soviet nostalgia is beyond me. But that’s your Latvian problem.
Snork,
It’s not about the messenger but the message.
http://www.kojinshugi.com/?p=533
Sam: “…’If you don’t like it here, then go back to Russia’ is a treasonous sentiment in the United States, because that country is built on individualism. And they have rightly won their position in the world because of this basis. But the same statement in tiny Estonia is completely sensible. Because this country, distinct from Russia, is distinct because of one thing, and one thing only – the Estonian people, outnumbered by Russians 150 to one. We welcome guests, we welcome other ethnicities, but only if they want to become part of Estonian society. If your Russian ethnicity is so important to you, then the largest country in the world is situated right on our eastern border, filled with Russians and opportunities to be a Russian. …”
Peteris C: “…It’s not that we hate Russians for their ethnicity…What I hate, personally, is that I have to speak Russian most of the time when I do my shopping – that’s an act of elementary plotesse, and I don’t hate the shopgirls. But I am sure you’ve heard the arguments. I am supposed to feel sorry for the old pharmacist who hasn’t learned the word for “eye drops” – the old lady was sent here from Vitebsk and never desired to live here, and I am abusing her with language laws, just ’cause she’s a Russkie (or Belarusian, in this case). Well, I guess the Lettish babushki she abused for so many years don’t matter? My mother-in-law, who took two nice, long vacation tours of Siberia (because the Nazis took her away and “employed” her, and when she got back she clearly was a “fascist spy”), has to ask for eye drops in Russian so as not to offend her? A children’s surgeon doesn’t need to speak Latvian becasue all Latvians speak Russian? Even when they are three years old?
This then is the crux of the Baltic emotionalism. Occupied and flooded by colonists, most of whom never bothered to learn a word of our language and many of whom happily lived in confiscated houses whilst many of us took such nice holiday in cattle cars, we chose liberal democracy and tolerance, something that is quite evident despite our many failings (more here than in Estonia). If I tell someone from the West that I look upon Russians as guests, I must be a fascist. Frankly, I do have difficulty with that term/concept – there are an awful lot of Latvian bigots, and a citizen of Latvia ought to be equal to another citizen. Are they, though? What of THEIR behavior? As far as I know, not a single Russian in Parliament voted to support Estonia. The supposedly “centrist” “Russian party” which calls itself “Harmony Center,” shares a list with gentlemen like Rubiks, who was literally drooling for a bloodbath back in 1991. Zhdanok would love to see a Macedonai here – the only Russian in the European Parliament (elected by Russophones in “fascist” Latvia), she seems to think that once the Russians go on a rampage, NATO will intervene and declare bilingualism.
And what is “bilingualism”? There were so many sour faces at an opposition meeting here in Daugavpils, when it was pointed out that official bilingualism would suggest that Russians ought to learn Latvian. …”
You can read the entire “a nation state” exchange at kojinshugi.